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| Zeinab Badawi (BBC) |
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| Meles Zenawi (AFP) |
Journalist Zeinab wonders, among other things, that Zenawi has been in power since 1991, and if he is ready to step aside. Meles says this one is his last. In other words, he wouldn't ask for five more years at the next 2010 "election." He says he will submit a resignation request to his party.
Zeinab - Prime Minister Meles Zenawi, welcome to HardTalk.
Meles Zenawi - Thank you.
Zeinab - Now Africa can't really expect very much from the G20 countries. Can it? Because, frankly, they are so busy attending to the needs of their own people. You can't blame them.
Zenawi - Well, we are part of the same global system. And the legitimacy of any system is largely determined by how it reaches the weakest elements of that system. And if the globalized system we now have treats the African countries like some extra, then of course the legitimacy of the whole system is in question.
Zeinab - So what exactly do you want from the G-20 countries because you've said in the past that you'd like to see more development aid being given by these countries?
Zenawi - We need resources to tide us over the current challenges. We've asked for something like $30 to $50 billion dollars of assistance through the IMF.
Zeinab - You've said in the past though that perhaps the financial crisis is going to bypass Africa. But in the last few months you changed your mind. You said Africa might actually be falling off the edge of the cliff unless aid comes in quickly. Why did you change your mind?
Zenawi - Because the financial crisis was transforming into an economic crisis, and has affected our export because commodity prices have collapsed, affected capital flows to Africa, affected the flow of remittances to Africa, and so the result...we face a crisis which was not of our own making.
Zeinab - So you want more development aid? I mean you could put a figure on it?
Zenawi - Yeah. We want the developed nations maintain their pledges, and at the same time give us additional resources of $30 to $50 billion dollars to tide us over the current challenges.
Zeinab - But look! The G20 countries might say to you we don't have any more money; I mean spending so much propping up their ailing financial institutions, their car industry and the rest of it...?
Zenawi - I would understand that. I'd understand that fully. That's why the proposal we have on the table is that the IMF should be used to create money; it has the capacity to create international money, and sell some of its gold, which means we could raise up to $50 billion without any way affecting the budget of the developed countries.
Zeinab - What about you African governments can do to your own people? Look Ethiopia, for instance. The inflation rate right there is 32%. Last July it was double that, 64%. Conservative estimates say 5 million people [are] currently going hungry in Ethiopia. Why can't your government be doing more? You have been in power since 1991.
Zenawi - Well, we've been doing more over the past five years. Our economy has been growing at more than 11%, and so, the five years' performance is quite good. The fact that we've inflation, at a time when the globe is facing deflation, seems to suggest that our economy is growing robustly. That is not to say that inflation is a minor problem, but it is a problem of growth.
Zeinab - You say your economy is performing quite robustly. For example, if you look at the chief economist for the British Department For International Development (DFID), Professor Alan Winters, who recently went to Ethiopia to make his own assessment, he's kind of slightly sounding the alarm bells about the future prospects for Ethiopia.
Zenawi - Well, there are challenges ahead of us. The current economic crisis is not the most benign environment for us. And we have inflationary problems as you indicated. We've balance of payment problems related to the current crisis and internal problems. So, as a result of this, there are some clouds on the horizon. But the fact remains that for six years we've done very well.
Zeinab - But when you look, for example, at humanitarian food aid for Ethiopia, you are still so dependent on that. One in six Ethiopians still relies on food aid; otherwise they go starving.
Zenawi - We have about five million people who need food aid. That is significantly less than one fifth of the population. But we've safety net programs for more Ethiopians, that safety net program you could consider as social safety net programs you have in such developed countries.
Zeinab - You say five million but, as you know, some international aid agencies had suggested, and you got into a slight kind of snitch, as you remember, around September last year that they were saying the figure might be as high as 8 million. Would you really know what the problem is? Let me just tell you what the USAID, the American development aid agency, said in March last year. There are literally hundreds of areas in Ethiopia that have neither been assessed, nor received any food assistance with populations terrorized by their inability to access food. Perhaps ... underestimating the extent of the problem?
Zenawi - Well, we wouldn't want to underestimate the problem because it is our people who would die if they didn't get assistance. So, on balance, we tend to be cautious in terms of the figures. We want to err on the higher side of the figures rather than on the lower side of the figures because it is about lives of people that we are talking. The point is, I think, the estimates this year have been as reliable as the estimates in previous years, and in previous years we have not erred on the side of underestimating the figures.
Zeinab - When you said Douglas Alexander, the British Development minister, expressed concern in June last year when he was touring Ethiopia, one particular area, Kebri Dehar, he was concerned that perhaps that malnourished children were being kept out of view. Aid workers, both international and domestic, were quoted in the press anonymously as saying, "Perhaps they've hidden these malnourished children from view." He expressed that concern.
Zenawi - He did because some of the NGOs told him that. And we agreed we would carry out thorough nutrition survey in the region. That nutrition survey is, I think, going on as we speak. Now...
Zeinab - Nine months later? Still going on? Still investigating?
Zenawi - The thing is some of these NGOs have not been positively inclined towards the government because of the legislation we have in place that they think restricts their activity. But otherwise, there have been no deaths in Kebri Dehar, or children of anybody else. Everybody now recognizes that perhaps the emergency was a bit exaggerated.
Zeinab - And they weren't hidden out of view?
Zenawi - No. There has never been any such practice in the past, and there will never be such practice in the future.
Zeinab - Why do you think these NGOs might be working against the interest of the Ethiopian government? in fact you've just announced a new legislation that would restrict the activities of NGOs and charities.
Zenawi - Some of the NGOs are unhappy with that legislation, and they have made their point of view very clear to us.
Zeinab - But they have got a point; it does undermine the independence of civil society groups, and that is very important for the proper functioning of democracy.
Zenawi - It does not undermine the independence of Ethiopian civil society organizations. What it undermines is the funding of civil society organizations in Ethiopia who are involved in political activities from foreign sources. And I believe the practice in all advanced countries is that political activities are funded from local sources.
Zeinab - But this is going to impose a very complex system of governance and surveillance, essentially a government control on NGOs and charities?
Zenawi - No. That is not going to be the requirement. They will have to file their financial audits, and on the basis of financial audits of their financing, we will know whether they are sourcing their money from local sources or foreign sources. And mind this is just NGOs involved in political activities. All those NGOs who are involved in economic, social and environmental development activities are not required to source their money locally.
Zeinab - Addis Ababa is home to the headquarters of the African Union, and you've always taken a very kind of vocal lead in the affairs of the continent. Looking at the African Union's position on the recent indictment by the International Criminal Court of the Sudanese president, Omar Hassan al Beshir, the African Union has condemned it. Doesn't it look though AU leaders are in a sense turning a blind eye to the suffering of those in Darfur?
Zenawi - Well, clearly there is injustice in Darfur. And the African Union recognizes that. But there are different methods of addressing injustice. There is the restorative justice of the type we saw in South Africa. And everybody agrees that the apartheid system in South Africa committed crimes against humanity. Nobody I know of had opposed the South African method of restorative justice. And I don't see any reason why a similar approach could not be followed for Darfur.
Zeinab - Well, as you know, Abdelaziz Sebderat, the Sudanese Justice Minister, is proposing there should be an internal Sudanese Darfur war crimes tribunal. But frankly, should the Sudanese government has done that sooner to try to impress upon the African Union and the international community that they are serious to tackle the alleged abuses in Darfur.
Zenawi - You know the Abuja Peace Agreement, which was brokered by the African Union?
Zeinab - [Yes]; between the Darfur (I mean some of them) and the Sudanese side.
Zenawi- [Yes] ...and the Sudanese ... included measures of internal reconciliation, and some sort of a truth and reconciliation commission of the type we had in South Africa. The thing is the crisis in Darfur is primarily a political crisis. It is not a humanitarian crisis. It is a political crisis. Unless you resolve the political crisis, you cannot resolve a humanitarian crisis.
Zeinab - But I was asking you ... you thought about the reconciliation process, whatever, the Darfur war crimes trial that has been suggested by the Sudanes government... it is a bit late in the day. Isn't it really?
Zenawi - Well, the African Union is suggesting that the indictment be deferred for a year, so that an already complicated peace process doesn't get more complicated, so that they get a breathing space to try and resolve the political problem, on the basis of which we could then address issues of justice and humanitarian concern.
Zeinab - They only deferred so in time perhaps President Omar al Bashir would have to submit himself, one way or another, to the ICC?
Zenawi - Well, the hope is that the political reconciliation process would ovulate the need for alternative judicial system.
Zeinab - So you are not seeking a deferral than essentially seeking a cancellation?
Zenawi - No. We are seeking a deferral in the hope that through this deferral, we will resolve the political problem which could then open up new possibilities of addressing issues of injustice.
Zeinab - You know more than half of the countries in sub-Saharan Africa have actually signed up to the International Criminal Court. What do you think they should do now in the light of the condemnation of ICC indictment? Should they perhaps reconsider their position so that they are no longer signatories to the ICC?
Zenawi - A number of these countries are thinking in those terms but I will not presume to give suggestions as to how to move forward... because Ethiopia is not a member of the ICC.
Zeinab - No, you are not a signatory. So if Omar al Beshir says to you, "Oh, Prime Minister Meles Zenawi, I'd like to come to Addis; I'd like to come to the headquarters of the African Union," you would say, "You're welcome!"?
Zenawi - Well, there are legal and political issues here. Legally, Ethiopia is not a member of the ICC. There is no Security Council mandate requiring member states of the United Nations to detain him. So, legally, we've no obligations to detain him.
Zeinab - So, he will be welcome; as he has been to Eritrea, he has been to Egypt. You'll welcome him?
Zenawi - We'll welcome him because the African Union has not accepted this indictment, and we are the headquarters of the African Union. We've no legal obligation to detain him, and he is a head of state of a neighboring country, and I don't know of any developed country which has cut diplomatic ties with the Sudan.
Zeinab - You know there are those few - or perhaps a lot of - commentators say this is a big problem for African leaders such as yourself. When it comes to the indictment of Omar al Beshir, they feel it has an uncomfortable precedent that people may raise questions about what your own armies have done in your own countries. They may raise the accusations, for example, about the activities of the Ethiopian army in the Ogaden region, the border area with Somalia where there are ethnic Somalis. You know there are organizations, Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International, who would say Ethiopian forces have done wicked things in the Ogaden?
Zenawi - Let's deal with this issue step by step. As far as the conduct of the Ethiopian army in the Ogaden is concerned, I think we've come up with a detailed report, nullifying the accusations of Human Rights Watch on a case, on every count. So I think the performance of our army has been exemplary.
Zeinab - Do you think [so?] ... because Human Rights Watch says the Ethiopian military forces [have] continued to commit war crimes and other serious abuses with impunity in the Ogaden.
Zenawi- As I said, we've proven concretely that these accusations were full of lies. One of the methods we used was to interview people who were supposedly killed by our army, according to Human Rights Watch. So this is full of lies. What Human Rights Watch did was interview sympathizers of the rebel groups in Kenya, and then took this as the last word in the Bible, and then decided that we have, or we must have, committed crimes.
Zeinab - The ICRC was kicked out in 2007 by the Ethiopians, by your government. In the Ogaden, independent journalists can't really operate there without being watched by security forces. That's the problem.
Zenawi - That's not true. Many humanitarian organizations, I'm sure over 30, are operating in the Ogaden.
Zeinab - And journalists going in ... moving around freely?
Zenawi - Yes, many journalists have visited the Ogaden.
Zeinab - Freely, without security forces watching over every move?
Zenawi - Well, if they want to move freely without security [forces] providing the security, they could end up in Mogadishu as two humanitarian organization workers ended up kidnapped by these terrorists.
Zeinab - One of the reasons why the international community has kind of looked the other way when it comes to the Ogaden [is] because your country, Ethiopia, is such a key ally in the war on terror. For instance, your troops were sent into Somalia to keep out the Islamists and so on, and that is why perhaps they are not asking too many questions.
Zenawi - We would say the exact opposite is the truth. Our army has managed very difficult counter-insurgency operation in a manner any army in the world, and I mean any army in the world, would be proud of in terms of the human rights record in the Ogaden.
Zeinab - What about the fight that you are a key ally in the war on terror? You went into Somalia, and now it seems they [are] actually saying yes, you went in, there were lots of civilians who died, you know, various accusations being made. They may say: "what did you really gain? Because the Islamists, in a sense, are back in power in Somalia?"
Zenawi - Our problem was not with the Islamists. Our problem was with the terrorists. Not all Islamists are terrorists, as far as we are concerned. Now the specific group of Islamists who are now in power ...
Zeinab - You happy with the new president, Sharif Ahmed?
Zenawi - Absolutely.
Zeinab - Even though there were reports a couple years ago you were talking about [the Islamists] declaring holy war on Ethiopia?
Zenawi - Yes. We were very unhappy within then because they declared jihad against us. Now we are happy within because he says he wants to practice his Islam in Somalia. That is his time.
Zeinab - And impose Sharia law in Somalia?
Zenawi - That is not our business. That is the business of Somalis. If they are comfortable with Sharia, then its their problem.
Zeinab - So this is not going to be seeking holy war, jihad, perhaps keeping Alahizbi, al Qaeda groups like that?
Zenawi - Yes, he has given us promises, and so far, he has acted on the basis of his promises. And anyway, we're very comfortable with him now.
Zeinab - Well, again Somalia is a demonstration how your country has taken quite a lead in the affairs of the continent. But do you feel your domestic record on dealing with the opposition in Ethiopia really justifies you taking such a lead? Do you still have the authority? Because there are so many accusations about how you undermined the opposition in Ethiopia?
Zenawi - All I can tell you is I'm very proud of my record as a political leader in Ethiopia - both in terms of political reforms and economic growth.
Zeinab - This year's report of the Human Rights Watch, again warning of a growing trend of political repression in Ethiopia, says Ethiopian government's human rights record remains poor ... by ever hardening intolerance towards meaningful political dissent or independent criticism?
Zenawi - As I said, Human Rights Watch gets its reports from refugee camps sourced by people who have an ax to grind, and we've repeatedly proved that most of these are lies.
Zeinab - Well, the opposition leader of the Unity for Democracy and Justice Party, the UDJ, Birtukan Mideksa, is in jail - for life. And people like Amnesty International, for instance, say she's been arrested, and she remains detained, and there are no lawful reasons why she should be?
Zenawi - What more lawful reasons do they need than proper, formal judgment of a court of law of Ethiopia? If a formal court of law of Ethiopia ...
Zeinab - What did she do? In 2005, after the elections, she said these elections were rigged, and she went into prison for a couple of years, and then she's released, and now she finds herself put back in prison again.
Zenawi - You see! This is the distortion I was talking about. She was accused of being involved in an activity that was designed to bring about unconstitutional change of government in Ethiopia. That case was proved in an independent court of law observed by, among others, European Union observers. That court made the decision that she was criminally liable, and sentenced her to life. After that, this lady asked for pardon, and we gave her the pardon, and she was released. After she was released, she said she didn't ask for pardon at all...
Zeinab - So you put her back to prison for life?
Zenawi - Which means she was given pardon under false pretenses. And according to our law, any pardon given under false pretenses has to be nullified immediately.
Zeinab - She said that all she did in 2005 was take party notes of anti government protests in which 187 people died, most of them from the opposition, because she felt the elections were rigged. And people might say, "Prime Minister Meles Zenawi, is that really something worthy of a life sentence?"
Zenawi - No. Protesting is not worthy of any sentence. But being involved in an activity which was designed, planned to change a government by unconstitutional means, that is a criminal act. As far as I know, in every country...
Zeinab - But you never heard on the part of the UDJ say that regional governments of Ethiopia ordered the closure of our branches, incarcerated our members while our properties have been vandalized under the sole pretext we lacked legitimacy? So they can be claiming about harassment?
Zenawi - Yeah, look; the point is if everytime some person in the opposition claims that he has been harassed, it is assumed that that person must have been harassed, then we are into the business of allegations and counter-allegations, rather than into the business of verifying facts. And I'm suggesting that we should speak on the basis of facts, not allegations and counter allegations.
Zeinab - OK, as I said, you've been in power since 1991. Sometimes you say it's time for you to be relieved of your duties. Sometimes you say you see yourself as a soldier for the party. When is it time for you to call a day? Because it sounds like you're subscribing to the notions of a kind of 'big man theory of African politics'? You're kind of indispensable for your country.. I've been there for two decades?
Zenawi - I don't consider myself as indispensable at all. And I believe that if any person is indispenable to the wellbeing of any party or any country, then that country or that party doesn't deserve to live.
Zeinab - So, when might you call it a day?
Zenawi - As soon as my party agrees with my proposal.
Zeinab - Can you tell us what your proposal is? Your elections are in 2010?
Zenawi - My proposal is to make sure this is my last term.
Zeinab - Prime Minister Meles Zenawi, thank you very much.
Zenawi - Thank you.
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(Transcribed by Ethiomedia)
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